Kara and Adina reflect on the Succession finale and the journey for each of the main characters from the beginning of the show to the end, addressing character tactics, the cycles of abuse, and the tragedy structure of the show as a whole. Subscribe to our newsletter at itsinmyqueue.substack.com. Find us on Twitter: @inmyqueuepod • @adinaterrific • @karaaa_powell And Instagram: @inmyqueuepod or send comments, questions, and show suggestions to us at itsinmyqueuepod@gmail.com!
Kara and Adina reflect on the Succession finale and the journey for each of the main characters from the beginning of the show to the end, addressing character tactics, the cycles of abuse, and the tragedy structure of the show as a whole.
Subscribe to our newsletter at itsinmyqueue.substack.com.
Find us on Twitter: @inmyqueuepod • @adinaterrific • @karaaa_powell
And Instagram: @inmyqueuepod
or send comments, questions, and show suggestions to us at itsinmyqueuepod@gmail.com!
Kara: [00:00:00] Welcome to It's In My Queue, the podcast where we talk about all things TV. I'm Kara.
Adina: And I'm Adina.
Kara: And today we're talking about Succession. This probably feels backwards because if you've been following us, you know, we already talked about Succession, but this time it's different.
If you listen to our last episode, which was kind of a recap on what's going on with the Writer's Guild and the writer's strike you might have heard that we are going to mix it up with some of our episode formats, try and talk about some new topics that are not just about the pilot, but also about like the series as a whole.
And since we just saw the series finale of Succession, we thought we would use that as an example of seeing some character arcs and how characters changed or did not change over the series.
Adina: So just as a quick preface if you haven't seen Succession, I'm sure you've had no shortage of people saying it's a good show and it's [00:01:00] kind of annoying when you haven't seen it and you hear people talking about it. I think we've all been there before we watched it..
Kara: That's literally how we started watching it. Thank you to my mother.
Adina: But it is quite good. And if you wanna begin it, we do have an episode that came out, oh gosh, over a year ago now, breaking down the Succession pilot with our friends Jon and Pat, who have their own podcast. But yeah, today we're gonna look back at the entire series. So also, here's your, like, spoiler warning, if you haven't seen all of Succession, we are gonna be talking about all of it. So, turn back now if you don't want to hear about what happens. But I think one of the things that is very core to the structure of Succession is that it's not terribly surprising what happens, at least in my opinion. I don't think there are really any big spoilers that should shock you if you've seen any of the show.
Kara: We've talked about this a little bit in other instances, but I feel like in this age of the internet where you very can easily just see what's going to happen in a show online if you're [00:02:00] like, not even looking really, like if you go to watch a show and something is "predictable", I'm using air quotes. It doesn't necessarily ruin the show. Like for example, if you were watching Succession, the episode that Logan dies, if you didn't watch it right when it aired, you probably saw that Logan dies. But that's all you see. You don't know how or what happens in the episode. And I think the act of watching through it and feeling the tension of that specific like 20 minute long scene it is a treat. Even if you did know. That's weird to call someone's death a treat, but it was just a really good scene, is what I mean, is that it's the way it's done, not necessarily what happens.
Adina: Obviously some stories are more enjoyable if you go into them not knowing what's gonna happen, but I think good stories, well told stories are usually just as enjoyable or sometimes more enjoyable, if you already know what's going to happen [00:03:00] as you go into it.
And I think Succession is one of those. Structure wise, I feel like there was a lot of sort of snarky discussion about this, especially as the last couple of seasons we're airing about Succession. It's not a very shocking show because the characters don't really change in big ways. It doesn't really surprise you. It doesn't really go against the grain. It is very predictable in that sense . But that's not a bad thing. It's an example of a pretty classic tragedy structure.
Tragedy stories, they usually make it pretty clear that things are not gonna go well and they usually have a pretty clear for forecast of like, what's wrong with these characters from the beginning.
In a traditional story, in like a, a positive western narrative, it's like the character has a problem and then they face obstacles and then they solve it, or they conquer it. But in a tragedy it's like, they have a problem and then they face obstacles and try and deal with it, but they ultimately will succumb to that same problem. It gives you the hope that something might change, but ultimately it will not change. And if anything it might get [00:04:00] worse.
Kara: I think that one of the things that I feel like was a big topic of conversation throughout the show, because it's called Succession, is like, who's going to take the throne as it were, or get the company. Who is going to succeed? If you watched the show, you'd realize pretty quickly, none of the siblings were ever gonna get it. Like, as much as you kind of want them to they're never gonna get it.
Adina: To bring it back to the pilot, which we already discussed. The way that the TV show begins is that Kendall, who has been told that he's going to take over as CEO from Logan, he's told that that's not gonna happen anymore. But the show begins with Logan making it very clear he has no intent-- and he's had his whole life, I don't know exactly how old he is, 70, 80, whatever years, to, if he really did wanna pass on his company, he had a long time that he could have done it. It's so clear from the start that he obviously has no intention of actually passing it along in any kind of productive [00:05:00] way.
The reason we keep watching is because we connect emotionally with, again, even though these characters are very bad people, right? All of the characters on the show are very bad people, but we connect, we get invested in the hopes of like, but maybe is one of them gonna get it? Is there a possibility still? Right?
Kara: I feel like this would be a good moment to perhaps mention that Jesse Armstrong, the creator of Succession, has mentioned before that this is loosely based off of King Lear, which is a Shakespeare play.
If you didn't know about this, basically the main premise of King Lear is that King Lear is ready to step down. He does not want to work anymore and he is going to divide his like wealth and estate or whatever between his three daughters that he has. He's kind of giving them a test to see how much they love him. So two of them give a very flattering answer, and then the third one is kind of like, "mm, I don't know." [00:06:00] And that's his favorite. And she is disowned. It's kind of like the setting up the three siblings fighting over this prize and then there's a lot of death. I'm pretty sure also that because all of them die, some outsider takes the throne.
Adina: Yeah, that would make sense. The whole point of the show is, the reason that makes it engaging and entertaining is, like we said, us getting invested in it despite knowing deep down that none of them are gonna get it and none of them really deserve it.
But it is still so interesting to see some people that watch the show and like found the ending frustrating or unsatisfying in some way because I don't know, they wanted someone else to get it, I guess. Which is in a way a testament to the impressive ability of them to make this still engaging despite all of them being fictional and being bad, fictional people.
But the other interesting thing to me is like, at the beginning of the show, I didn't feel like Roman or Shiv actively [00:07:00] wanted to be CEO at the beginning of the show. They only just start convincing themselves they want it once they think they see an opportunity.
Kara: The thing that I notice, particularly in the pilot like it's Logan's birthday or whatever, and they're kind of talking about the whole situation of who's gonna get it. It kind of seems like from a sort of petty sibling standpoint, they don't really want Kendall to have it. And I feel like that is what motivates specifically Shiv throughout a lot of the series.
Adina: Definitely that comes back in a big way in the finale. They should have had a layup, they should have had it in the bag. It was like they're finally all on the same side for once. And you know, if they could all just agree and get behind Kendall, they could keep the company, but they can't. Shiv in particular just can't let Kendall have it. And I'm not saying she should have, but like, that's her character.
I think all three of them think of this position as like a substitute for their father's love and approval. And I think Kendall probably does have the most actual business qualification to do it and has been prepping for it for so long that, like, for [00:08:00] him it also seems like a practical desire.
But like I think, Shiv and Roman, you see them kind of snap at it and fight for it in the later seasons when they have a window, when their dad is being nice to them for a minute and then they latch onto, "oh, if he's being nice to me, I could be the one he picks." And it's less about actually wanting to do the job. It's more about wanting to be the one who daddy is smiling at.
Kara: Something that is interesting to do as a writer and also as just a person that likes consistency is to track character arcs specifically for main characters over the show, which is kind of how we're gonna format this specific finale discussion. We wanna look at where characters started at the beginning and where they ended up by the finale. Specifically with the three siblings, the three main siblings-- sorry, Connor-- Kendall, Roman, and Shiv. Since they're the ones that are obviously always fighting for the top job.
Kara: We should start with [00:09:00] Kendall, who once called himself the eldest boy, even though he is not. So kendall Roy is Logan's second son. He's got his first son from his previous marriage, but Connor is an eccentric dude and the one thing that I feel like is notable about Connor is the reason that he's never in this fight is because he knows that Logan doesn't like him. Like he literally says it, the day that Logan dies, the day of Connor's wedding that Logan didn't come to he goes, "oh, he always hated me," when he finds out that he's dead. Connor is never really searching for their father's approval in the way that these three are.
Adina: He still does try somewhat fruitlessly to get Logan's attention and stuff, but he seems to be a little bit more self-aware. It's interesting because nobody's truly happy in the end, but I feel like Connor comes out a little bit the best, like, he gets like Logan's apartment and a lot of his things and like he's [00:10:00] kind of moving on from the company and he does have a semi happy marriage. Because he's the most self-aware and didn't waste as much of his energy trying to win his dad's love, he comes out a little better.
Kara: Yeah. So back to Kendall, who we learned he was promised the role when he was seven years old, in a little ice cream shop. And I think he's been clinging onto that since forever.
So basically he starts, in the very beginning in the pilot, he's on his way to close this deal with Vaulter. It's also Logan's birthday and he is contemplating whether or not he should go to the party or stay and do the deal.
He decides to go to the party, which was the wrong move. This is when he finds out that he is not going to get the job which is sad for him. All we really see is Kendall having like really high highs and really low lows [00:11:00] and that's just kind of where he's at. It's kind of like an up and down throughout all four seasons.
Adina: Kendall knows his dad and in some ways is the most like his dad, in that I think he understands that you have to be either a hundred percent with Logan or a hundred percent against him. Like he doesn't respond well to like waffling. But Kendall, but he can't make up his mind about which one's actually gonna work because Logan doesn't give him consistent signals. So he alternates between trying to be like a hundred percent, do exactly what Logan wants, and then going a hundred percent against him and like attacking him and leading these crusades against him.
'Cuz he does that in season one. He tries to get the whole board to vote Logan out, and then that doesn't work. And then he kind of goes on a bender. And then season two he comes back due to his attempt failing, but also due to the waiter dying and Logan covering it up for him, et cetera. He comes back like a hundred percent being Logan's lap dog for that whole season. And then he, again, goes back to attacking against him, right? He's gotta [00:12:00] be on one extreme or on the other, but it never works. Cuz he already lost what he wanted in episode one.
It is sad and also because like no matter how hard he works and like I, again, I would say out of the three siblings, he's definitely seems the most qualified to be CEO. Maybe not out of all the people in the world, but out of those three, he seems the most qualified. And I feel like the other people on the board, like Frank and Gerri and Karl and all those people, I think they know that. But at the same time they know if even your own dad didn't have confidence in you to take over this company. Why should we have confidence in you?
Kara: And then this leads to a very interesting scene, where after Logan has died, they find this piece of paper where he had written that Kendall was going to be the successor to the company, but there was kind of a line through it, they have this whole thing where they're like, this is a very ambiguous line. Is it an underline or was he trying to cross it out? Kendall's very stuck on it because he's like, well, my name was literally in writing, it should go to me. [00:13:00] But they're all like, yeah, but when did he make this document? Because through a good portion of the series, Logan really is not on Team Kendall ever. So it's interesting how much this piece of approval, even after his dad is gone, is so important to him.
Adina: I think for all of the siblings, it feels like if they actually got to run the company that would feel like they had their father's love, they're trying to fill that void. So, yeah, that's kind of Kendall, he's a very tragic character. He's not a good person, but he's a very tragic character. He's also, he's an addict. He struggles with addiction before the series and throughout the series. He relapses into addiction at multiple points, usually due to the poor treatment from his father triggering it. And he also treats his own family-- he has a divorced wife and children that he doesn't see very often. And it's, you know, it's, it's just really sad to watch.
I [00:14:00] think that Kendall should have gone into theater, and I think he would've been a much happier boy if he would've just gone to theater school.
Kara: He puts on very great productions. Watching him perform "L to the OG" for the very first time, it is like one of the cringes scenes on the show, and I just remember like my jaw was on the floor. I saw GIFs from this scene before it happened, but I didn't understand what was going on and then watching it and hearing his little song that he made for Logan. Though he really made it for himself because Logan absolutely hated it.
Adina: Anybody could tell you Logan was not going to like that.
Kara: But yeah, Kendall was never meant for business, even though he does every so often have like a decent idea. He put together that whole Living+ presentation in the last season where I was like, I don't understand what this is, but you really convinced me about it actually. He could have been like a [00:15:00] really good motivational speaker or maybe even a cult leader.
Adina: The thing about Kendall as opposed to his siblings honestly, is that he goes all in and he tries really hard. And so he has the most experience and kind of sense out of the three of them. Whereas Roman and Shiv, both of them are a little bit more susceptible to waffling and trying to act smart. They're more concerned with sounding smart and like covering things up and pretending not to care and like giving these sarcastic zingers. Whereas I feel like Kendall is the one who's willing to be like, "this is what I think is going to work and here's why." He's the only one really able to have a calm discussion and try and make a point.
Kara: A thing that I remember pretty vividly from the pilot is when Logan is basically telling Kendall it's not gonna be him. Kendall is like trying to explain all of his qualifications and he like, says something about it not being a big dick competition. And Logan is like, well, actually yes, it is a big dick competition. At some point in the final season, Kendall [00:16:00] does say exactly that to Roman, that it is a big dick competition. So I feel like he is trying to learn from his past mistakes in order to get what he wants and then he still doesn't get it.
Adina: And that's Kendall.
Adina: So then we come to Roman, the middle child who I, and I think many other people were confused early on about Roman and Shiv's birth order. But I believe it is canon that Roman is the middle and Shiv is younger.
Kara: I think the biggest reason people think that is probably because Shiv is the only daughter. So she's kind of like, probably had to like act a bit of a different way than Roman ever had to, which might make him seem more the baby than she is.
Adina: Yeah. And at least in the early seasons, I got more of like a youngest immature energy from him but then as it went on, I definitely saw the middle child energy a little bit more. Cuz I feel like the defining thing about Roman is, on the surface he seems very like obnoxious. He loves to like, say [00:17:00] things to get a rise out of people. But he's also, out of the three of them, he's by far the most susceptible to what the people around him are saying, especially Logan, but also basically anyone who pays him attention.
Anyone who pays Roman attention and gives him any sort of positive feedback , he is actually quite willing to follow what people are encouraging him to do.
Kara: He's also very sensitive, and I feel like Roman is their mother's favorite. She babies him to an absurd degree. Like we saw in the finale episode, she's like, "oh no, you can't come here and upset him. He's had a terrible time." He kind of leans into that in some of his interactions with his siblings in particular.
Adina: I think he struggles with being not the eldest boy, even though Kendall is also not the eldest boy, but he gets treated like the eldest boy.
If we're doing like the alternate universe. How would all these people have been happy? I think Roman would've been happier if he would've had the fortitude to say, "I don't think I'm gonna work well at this company." Like [00:18:00] Connor, if he would've stepped away from the company and done his own thing, or maybe just say, "I'm gonna stick with the entertainment branch of the company," or whatever. If he just said like, "I'm gonna do my thing, not try and be CEO," because again, it doesn't seem like he really wanted it. He just wanted to feel like he could have been.
there's that scene in the season four finale where he starts crying into Kendall and he's like, "it could have been me though, right? It could have been me. Why can't it be me?" It never would've been him because he's not the eldest son. And also he's not better than Kendall at it, but because of the way Logan acts of like, your only worth to him is how useful you are. I feel like Roman was constantly struggling with knowing he was never gonna be Logan's favorite, but still wanting that love. Especially in seasons three and four, you see him really cozying up to Logan, which I think is honestly just because Logan was really pissed off at both Kendall and Shiv. He also kind of gets along well with like Mattson, at least at first. And so Logan uses him for that.
And then also in Connor's wedding, the episode where [00:19:00] Logan finally dies, Roman's the one that's kind of like still trying to be close with Logan at that point. But Logan's still taking advantage of him. He's like, "okay, go fire Gerri," right before he dies. It's just really sad.
He's an interesting blend of the middle child extremes because there are definitely times when he seems to be playing the peacemaker but also there are very frequently moments where he just does and says crazy shit to try and get attention. Especially his, his stance on "politics", and I'm putting that in quotes because I don't think any of these children actually care about politics the way that they say they do. Like they don't actually care what happens to the country. Roman's whole thing where he supports Jeryd Mencken, I think is partly because his dad found him useful and encouraged him but I think it's also because he knows when he says things, it will piss people off, especially Shiv. And he likes attention. He wants people to be listening to him even if they're yelling at him.
Kara: I once wrote that I think Roman's love language is quality [00:20:00] time. These characters on Succession, because Logan is so messed up, they're all messed up. It's a whole thing of the patterns of trauma and abuse. That's a big part of this show as well. Roman wants the company of his siblings the most. But everything he does just ends up pushing them away.
Adina: That kind of happens with all of his relationships. The same thing happens with Gerri. He fosters this relationship with Gerri that starts out with him annoying her, right? He's being obnoxious, and then she starts scolding him, and then it also becomes this sort of sexual thing for both of them that they enjoy. You can see that he's like, "I need this kind of personal attention, even if it's negative attention on the surface." But he ends up ruining that relationship still because he pushes it too far. Even after Logan dies, Roman, again because of the way he was raised, he's not capable of having an honest conversation with Gerri and being like, "I'm sorry. And I'm sad because my dad died." He gets even more combative with her and he fires her again. He totally ruins that relationship. And then you see him at the very end of [00:21:00] the series alone. He doesn't have anyone in his life. He doesn't have any significant relationships, and, he's pissed off his siblings as well.
That's Roman.
Adina: Then Shiv, where do we begin on Shiv?
Kara: Ay-yi-yi. Shiv, as we've already said, is the only daughter of Logan, which she says herself, it was very hard to be a daughter of him.
Adina: Okay, that speech, it makes sense and I believe that it was very hard to be Logan's daughter. But the thing that I get annoyed about with Shiv, and also with some people that are really strong fans of Shiv online, is just because misogyny exists and just because it is hard to be a woman that doesn't automatically make everything Shiv does fine, and that doesn't automatically make her better than her brothers.
In season one. I think she was one of my favorites and I thought she was a little bit smarter and or better than her brothers. But then by season two I was like, oh no, you are just as dumb.
Kara: Her downfall is that she's a little bit too gullible. So we [00:22:00] see her at the beginning. She acts like she doesn't want to be part of the company. She's forging her own path in politics. And she is with her at the time, he's just her boyfriend, Tom Wambgsans, like the very first scene you see of them together, Tom is trying to find a suitable birthday gift for Logan, like, what do you get a very wealthy man for his birthday. So he's trying to get her input on it. She doesn't help him. Basically Shiv acts kind of above it all.
And then, in the very first episode of season two, Logan basically tells her "I want it to be you." And she immediately believes him. And I'm like, why would you think that? When he's never said anything to you that would ever indicate that he wants you to be a part of this.
Adina: Yeah, I can kind of get her falling for it then, especially cuz it's coming from her dad. But by the middle of season two, there's a moment where Nan Pierce asks Logan who's gonna take over cuz he's trying to buy the Pierce company. [00:23:00] And Nan is like, "I wanna know who's gonna take over for you cuz you're old." And Logan refuses to say who's going to take over.
And then Shiv... this was the moment where I realized, I can't be a fan of Shiv anymore. It's too embarrassing. She goes, "come on, dad. Tell them it's me." And then he refuses to say it in front of everybody, and I'm like, girl, that's the moment. You should have walked away and never come back.
Kara: I've never been more embarrassed in my life than that scene.
Adina: Oh, I've been more embarrassed in the season four finale when she thought Mattson was really gonna stick with her.
Kara: Everything she does, I'm like, what is happening here?
Adina: Here's my thesis about Shiv. She would've been happier if she would've admitted from a younger age that she really did want to compete for the company and actually tried. I think the reason I find her very annoying is because I find aspects of this relatable. She has this attitude of like, "I could if I wanted to." She thinks that she's smarter than her brothers and that she could be the best CEO. And so much so that she doesn't even have to try. She's [00:24:00] like, " I'm doing my own thing cuz I'm cooler and smarter. But I could absolutely step in and run the company better than you guys." but she does not have any business experience whatsoever.
Kara: I think maybe in some ways she is smarter than her brothers, but not necessarily in ways that matter for this particular job. I just don't think it would've gone well. There's even attempts, like when she starts to come into the company, it's very clear that they're just giving her busy work.
Adina: Whereas like Roman and Kendall, even though they are sometimes doing bullshit stuff, they are also sometimes doing real business. I feel like Shiv's problem is, in a way similar to Roman's, except that she wants to actually be in charge of stuff more than he does, but she's so afraid of, and I guess this is where the misogyny comes in, of like she knows deep down it never would be her. So she's afraid to want it too much or to seem like she wants it too much because she knows that it will never go to her. So as a result, she tries to pull away from it, but like can't really walk away.
Kara: I guess my thing with all three [00:25:00] of them as people is that they are just so wealthy that, and I feel like if I were that wealthy, I would just never want to work.
Adina: They wanna feel valued. It's the thing of like, when you have everything you want, what do you still want? They're gonna end up yearning for the things that they don't have, such as love and affection.
Kara: Yeah. Which you see Shiv does try to do the love and affection thing. And you see she's very bad at it.
Adina: Yeah. I think she has the same problem with Tom and with relationships in general that she does with work, which is, she's so afraid of not being actually loved that she sabotages it. She treats Tom like shit. She is like really awful to him throughout the first three seasons. And then when he finally starts pulling away from her and starts treating her badly in return, then she's upset and she's hurt. And it's like, well, that this is, you have made this bed for yourself.
Kara: It was so interesting to see their relationship change [00:26:00] throughout the seasons. I feel like they do love each other, but neither of them know how to be normal about it.
Adina: I can kind of empathize with why Shiv has her issues, especially early on. I feel like Tom makes it very clear that he does love her a lot. He's a very strange and disturbed man in his own ways. But he makes it pretty clear that he cares about her in the early seasons and he puts up with a lot of shit that she gives him. Shiv deep down has this worry that, because he doesn't come from money and status, he is only interested in me because of my family. She doesn't wanna reach that point where she realizes that she loved him more than he loved her. So she preemptively treats him like shit.
Kara: There's a couple of things that I feel like are important to mention, which is like, at one point in season one Logan says to Shiv, "you are marrying a man fathoms beneath you." I forget what he says, but basically saying that it doesn't make sense that you're marrying Tom. I think that she thinks that Tom would not be the one to hurt her, [00:27:00] basically is what comes across in that sentiment.
Adina: She thinks that she has more power than Tom, and she feels safer that way. As long as she always has something, some leverage over him, then she won't get hurt, and yet she still ends up getting hurt.
Kara: Here's, here's the thing about Tom. Tom is a leech. Tom is a social climber to the max. It seems like they were kind of on the same page about how their relationship began. And then, one day I guess they just stopped talking about it.
Adina: I feel like their relationship was kind of like a game of chicken. It's kind of like that "Bitey" scene in season four where they're like, yeah, which, okay, is this a real game, by the way? I never heard of this.
Kara: I don't think it is. I think they're just weird.
Adina: They're like, we're just gonna bite each other on the arm until it hurts too much. That's probably how their relationship started, Shiv was probably like, "are you just interested in me because of who my family is?" And Tom was like, " are you just gonna like manipulate me and whatever?" and then they kind of, you know, dug that like, honesty with each other and then just kind of started playing chicken of like, "oh, what if we took this seriously? What if I brought you to meet my [00:28:00] family?" And then they just never stopped.
Kara: Also very important to note is that Tom literally proposed to Shiv when her father was in the hospital after a stroke. He used that moment to his advantage.
Adina: Which is also really funny 'cause I had forgotten about this until I watched a recap, but then there's an episode a couple episodes later, there's this gala where Logan comes to the gala, even though he's still recovering from his sickness and everyone's like, you shouldn't come. And then he makes a speech and he talks about like, "somebody took advantage of me while I was in the hospital." everybody thinks he's talking about Kendall who stepped in as acting CEO, but then he pivots instead of saying that in public, he pivots and says, "Tom stepped in and proposed to my daughter." Which is also interesting because then it ends up being Tom who is the one who was kind of stepping in when nobody noticed. And he is the one who ultimately gains that position as CEO.
Which I know a lot of people... some people found it, I don't know. I think the reason that it makes sense as the ending is [00:29:00] because it is so unsatisfying. It's like, oh, of course it ended up being Tom cuz who else? It's not that he deserves it the most. It's not a comedy where Tom wins because he was more deserving than anybody else. It's a tragedy where Tom wins because he was the one in the right place at the right time who was the most convenient pawn for the people taking over. But at the same time, we ought to mention Tom does do more actual work than any of the siblings throughout the whole series.
Kara: Specifically, this is the reason that Mattson was like, this is my guy because Tom will just do what he's told.
Adina: Shiv knows that's what Matson wants. And she tells him, she's like, make me your puppet. But then she immediately starts pushing back against him and not acting like a puppet.
Kara: She like, wants to be the one making decisions, which was never gonna work.
Adina: Again, that's why she should be a fucking campaign manager because what she wants to do is make the decisions, but without actually being in the brunt of it.
Kara: The other things that kind of make shivs decisions [00:30:00] make a little bit more sense. At the end of the series, she is pregnant with Tom's child. We find that out a few episodes in, I think. It seems like they're on the verge of a divorce. But then she has this information. She doesn't share it for a while. She finally tells Tom and he thinks that she's lying
Adina: I think it's really interesting how her pregnancy was handled because it's not the magical balm that fixes their marriage. It's also very unclear how she feels about it. She doesn't seem terribly excited, cuz obviously it is kind of a rough timing and rough situation, but she also doesn't seem to not want it. She has access to abortion. Obviously abortion's under attack, but someone like Shiv Roy can always get an abortion if she wants an abortion.
Kara: At the end of season three, She has that whole conversation with her mother, where her mother is basically like, "I don't think that I should have had kids and you would probably also make a very bad mother." And then [00:31:00] she finds out that she's pregnant. Shiv makes decisions where I'm like, I think you did this somewhat out of spite. So like she hears that from her mother. Then she and Tom have a major blowout fight where he says, "you would be a terrible mother."
Adina: At that point it doesn't even matter if she wants the kid or not. She would see not having the kid as like admitting defeat at that point. That sums up Shiv a lot. She will never admit defeat. As soon as it seems like she's about to be declared unsuccessful at something, she will then start fighting for that thing with everything she has in her, even if it's not something she wanted in the first place.
And it's so sad to watch because I liked her the most at the beginning cuz she seemed kind of the most grounded and sane at the beginning. But it's, it's sad to watch.
Kara: Going back to the whole thing of spite motivating the things that Shiv does, so basically in the finale, Kendall finds out from Greg that Mattson is [00:32:00] not going to go with Shiv as the American CEO. He's gonna go with someone else. That is kind of what helps Shiv to align with her brothers and vote for Kendall.
Adina: But again, she ultimately can't go with it. She flips in the end. Mm-hmm. Because she can't admit defeat.
Kara: I think another part of the reason that she flips is because she then later finds out that Tom is gonna be the guy that Mattson picks. I think at first that makes her angry, but then if you think about it more and Shiv thinks about it more, if she is still with Tom, it's like, not necessarily ideal, but she still has proximity to power because she is married, that's her husband, that's gonna be the CEO.
Adina: We and Tom and her brothers know that she got fucked over. No one else in the world really knows that she got fucked over. She sees her options as it's either gonna be Kendall or it's gonna be Tom and she has the power to choose. Because she's the last one to vote, she has the power in her hands to choose who it's gonna be.[00:33:00] She has already lost, but she gets to choose who else is gonna lose. And she also gets to choose which outcome looks worse to the world. For her, it looks less like a loss if she goes with Tom.
Kara: I think that everything that Shiv does makes sense.
Adina: The tragedy for her is like, it doesn't matter if she wants it or not, she was never going to get it. The reason that she makes so many terrible decisions is because she doesn't have the power of like, am I gonna get it or not? Her only real power is who am I gonna fuck over?
Kara: It makes perfect sense where Shiv ended up at the end of this. This is not completely related, but I saw a tweet where it was a picture of Tom and Shiv and someone was like, "I know they're a terror at parent teacher conferences."
Adina: Now that we've addressed each of the three main children and we also, we mentioned a little bit how Connor's obviously not terribly happy either, but he kind of comes out a little bit better than his siblings just due to his awareness.
But to talk about Logan a little bit... Logan doesn't really change. There's never really [00:34:00] any doubt about what Logan's going to do, or there is in the sense of like, he's not very forthcoming with his feelings. So sometimes his actions might surprise you in the moment. But fundamentally it's never surprising because it's very clear. He wants to stay in charge of his business. He wants to be able to do what he wants, and he does not love his children. He does not trust his children to take over, I guess, is the main thing. And that is true at every single moment in the series. There are moments when he appears to give them affection and appears to give them opportunities, which is very clear that he's just trying to kind of manipulate them or pacify them in the moment. But like it is overwhelmingly clear that he never intends for any of them to take over, because if he did, he would've made it clear way before the series even started.
That's why it's a tragedy. It is never going to change. If it would've been a better outcome, it would've already been and the series would've never happened. The whole underlined or crossed out paper sums that up really well. It doesn't matter whether he intended that [00:35:00] little line to be an underline or a cross out on that paper, because the fact of the matter is it was a random piece of paper undated in a random safe. If he intended for it to be a real plan of succession, he should have actually made it clear and told everybody and if it wasn't meant to be a real plan, he should have destroyed it. He doesn't give a shit about what happens after he dies because he doesn't believe he's gonna die.
Kara: One of the big things of this show is how trauma and abuse are passed down through generations and we know that Logan had a bad childhood. We kind of get a little bit of this from like his brother Ewan's eulogy. Cuz like I remember in season two somewhere when it seemed like maybe Rhea was gonna be a part of the company. The siblings get together and they're like, "we need to make her look bad." And they tell her to bring up Rose in a toast. They didn't tell her a thing about Rose. It makes Logan upset because [00:36:00] Rose is Logan and Ewan's younger sister who passed away. She had polio, I think that Ewan mentions in his eulogy.
Adina: He doesn't imply that it was actually Logan's fault, but that their aunt and uncle or whoever was caring for them, implied to young Logan that it was his fault, that he brought the sickness home from school. So it makes sense that he would be sensitive about that. it's kind of nice that they keep it to like relatively small moments and allusions throughout the series, but like, they do make it pretty clear that Logan came from this incredibly hard childhood of poverty, of mistreatment, of like, you know, getting displaced by the war and all that. It makes sense that he grew up to be kind of terrible. And then the way that he's passed it on to his children, and it's getting a little bit transformed with each different generation of, like, he had to fight so hard to get what he had, and they grew up having everything without ever having to work for it. So they don't really know, they don't know how to navigate the world. They don't know how to [00:37:00] want something and go after it or how to accept that they won't get something.
Kara: I feel like he kind of resents them for that, which is another big issue.
Yeah,
Adina: exactly. I think somebody says that. I think some character does say that at some point in the series that he resents his kids for having the better childhood,
Kara: Which is a bad response, and that does not break cycles of trauma and abuse. Because you should want your children to have a better life than you did.
Adina: The other thing that's interesting about the kids is, they're all very aware of it, obviously. Like they know that they've been through shit and that their father didn't treat them well, but they do still wish it was better. I think they all feel like being aware of it means that they don't really need to address it anymore. They, they make all these like little sarcastic comments acknowledging it and like when they do go to therapy, they can't take it seriously. It's very hard to address those things, especially when you kind of know deep down, like, doing more therapy might have helped them on an individual basis, but it wouldn't [00:38:00] make their dad love them.
Kara: So, yeah. Unfortunately the Roys will not be breaking the cycles of abuse anytime soon. It's really sad, but again, this is a tragedy and that's kind of the point.
Adina: So, yeah, just to loop it all back together tragedy, as we talked about, the problem is very clear from when the story begins. And then the story is about the characters having the hope that they think they can solve it. But it's very obvious they're not going to solve it, and their efforts are just going to leave them worse off in all likelihood. Like the very stereotypical clear cut examples like Oedipus, there's this prophecy that tells you exactly what's gonna happen, " your child is going to kill his father and marry his mother." Oh, well, let's solve that. Let's avoid that by killing our child. Right? But then that is what actually makes it come to pass. People compare Succession to Shakespeare because, he wrote a lot of tragedies that are kind of a foregone conclusion.
In Romeo and Juliet, they're from warring families. It's not gonna work out well and it doesn't work out well. In Hamlet, [00:39:00] his dad is dead. And all his things that he tries to do to try and catch his uncle and like, get revenge, that's not gonna change the fact that his dad is dead.
It's easy for us to give these hypotheticals, like this is the alternate universe of how the Roy kids could have been happier, but in that universe, even if they went to more therapy and they found other things to do with their life that were a little better, they still would've had an abusive father and he still wouldn't have loved them.
I guess we, we began this by mentioning like, is TV consistent? Obviously some stories are more so about change, you know? If they're not a tragedy, they might be more so about change. But structurally, tonally, thematically, I think if a story feels consistent throughout, then that's a good mark of success.
A lot of stories where they go wrong is by like forgetting what they're trying to be about. And I think one of the reasons this show was so successful and so popular is because it knew what it was about from the beginning and it didn't try and veer off from that.
Kara: It goes to show that we have to allow shows more [00:40:00] room to end on their own terms. Because this is a very specific example that we don't really see very much anymore, the way that things are getting canceled. This is an HBO show, not an HBO Max or Max or whatever. That's a slightly different management. But this is the story that Jesse Armstrong felt like telling. And they let him do it.
They let him go his like four seasons, and it was his decision to end it. I think that he'd said early on, he could see four or five seasons out of this. I think I saw him say at one point he was like, "I was kind of hoping they'd be like, 'oh, do one more,' but they didn't."
What's great about succession is that the writers are so thoughtful. I think they could have come up with more, but I think that it makes sense to end it here.
Adina: Yeah. It does begin with this dramatic question of who's going to take over. And as of the end of season four, it has been answered. You could tell more stories of these characters continuing to behave in these tragic ways. You could tell another season about Shiv and Kendall and Roman all [00:41:00] trying to wrestle control back from Tom. But I don't think it would feel the same, because the show isn't about what happens to RoyCo for the rest of time forever. It was about who takes over when Logan dies.
Kara: It's something that I hope that we kind of can get back to, allowing shows to have room to grow.
Adina: I also wanna shout out this show for, even though it is like the height of prestige drama for the past few years, it also is still very good at episodic storytelling.
One thing that has been my pet peeve in the last few years is there's been this trend towards much more serialized storytelling, which means like a long, ongoing story as opposed to episodes that stand on their own. But when some shows are written, like quote unquote 10 hour movies, they lose the feeling of episodes.
They lose each episode feeling like a mini story within the larger story. And I think Succession was really, really good at still making the episodes feel like episodes. They come up with good events for each episode. Okay, this is the one with the gala. This is the one with Thanksgiving. This is the one with Tom's bachelor party. This is Connor's wedding. [00:42:00] They have things to structure them around. And there are, there is very much still a beginning, middle end of the little conflicts within each episode, but it is part of the larger overall.
Kara: Not saying, these shows are alike, but I mean, I guess they're about wealthy people. But Gossip Girl, the original, they structured every episode around an event.
Adina: One of the things about season four of Succession that's a little different from the other seasons is it takes place over the span of, I think a week. And it's a very eventful week because like Connor's wedding is planned and then Logan dies, and then there's also the election and this GoJo deal, like a lot of shit's happening in this week, but it doesn't feel all that different from the other seasons because they still stick to their very smart episodic structure.
They still know what every episode's gonna be, what is the job of every episode, what's going to change from one episode to the next? And it's because they have a really strong writing team. A really, a really strong team of multiple writers, not just one person who have, who are afforded the time and the space to really work out their plan and their scripts [00:43:00] and and figure out how to execute it best.
And so that's why we need to protect the writer's room because that's how you get good television.
Kara: . Having more than one brain in any space, specifically in television is super helpful because sometimes I feel like sometimes a show will be like and I'm not even talking about any specific show, I'm just saying like generally sometimes I think that a show will be far too busy so I cannot remember what has happened.
And I think that you need to focus in on what is the main thing you're trying to say, not just with the episode, but also with the series as a whole.
Adina: That's the difference between Fanfic and actually writing a TV show. 'Cause you could have other ideas that might be really interesting and really fun about what these characters could do and what could happen in this world. Like, wouldn't it be really fun if we got to see Tom and Greg accidentally start a multilevel marketing scheme or something, right? It's interesting to imagine how those characters would do it and it might be really fun to watch or read.
However, if it is not [00:44:00] serving the main goal of the series and the main structure of the series, you do have to have somebody within the team to speak up and say, that's not serving the story that we're trying to tell right now.
Kara: And I think that's also the whole point of the showrunner's job is that after a script is written, they do a pass over it to make sure that it is in that distinct voice of the show.
Adina: It's a very difficult job to be a showrunner. Cuz first of all you're managing so many people and so many budgets and all that, but also just creatively you have to have that balance of knowing what the show has to be, what you want the show to be, but also what everyone has agreed the show is going to be. But you also have to support all of your colleagues in bringing it to life. There are some people that like to feel like a genius or an auteur and they like to take credit or be like, "this is all my idea."
I feel like I've heard pretty good things about Jesse Armstrong in this regard and like Vince Gilligan and some other show runners that are really able to clearly articulate what the show has to be in such a way that everyone can still really contribute to it as a team without [00:45:00] being like, " I'm an auteur and I'm telling everyone what to do."
Kara: The show runner is the one hiring the people that are writing, and they can figure out if that's going to fit where they're going. You wouldn't necessarily hire someone who does something that your show is not trying to do.
Adina: Another thing that Succession has mentioned, I forget where I read this, but they employ a lot of consultants on all different, cuz they're dealing with a lot of like big topics such as business, such as Simply Being Rich, such as politics. They've had consultants for all of those topics to like make sure that what they're saying sounds somewhat coherent.
Having those consultants allows, it helps the writers because they know the story they're trying to tell and then those people can help check in on them of like, is this representing the business world accurately? Is this representing wealth accurately? And then they can find a solution that will kind of work for both. That's how having more people and more knowledge involved, is how you get good stuff.
All that to say, the things that we as viewers [00:46:00] and as an industry should take away from Succesion is that original idea, it's obviously inspired by existing things like some Shakespeare, like King Lear and like the Murdochs, the life of the Murdoch family, it still doesn't have to be super complicated. So just like simple, clear ideas that are just given the freedom and given the resources to just tell a story.
Kara: Yeah. Succession is a great show.
Adina: That is basically why we both ended up enjoying the show so much. And I feel like there's so much to learn as a writer from this show. Not to jerk it off too much, that's just the truth. And that's why I believe Kara called the finale "Perfect." And I, even though I'm an annoying person who hesitates to use the word perfect, I would call it pretty perfect too. They knew what they were doing, then they did it.
That's why Succession is good. And if you have thoughts about succession, either parts that you thought were really well executed that we didn't [00:47:00] cover, or if you have thoughts about some of the characters that you feel like we might've overlooked, send us a comment.
You can message us on whatever social media platform or you can email us at, itsinmyqueuepod@gmail.com. We honestly would love to hear from you. We don't get a lot of comments from people, but we, we love them when we do get them and we'll respond to you. We'll try and shout it out on a future episode if you would like.
The next show that we're planning to break down like this is another one that ended recently. Ted Lasso. We'll do a little retrospective on the three seasons of that show and how we felt about the progression of it.
And we do have an episode breaking down the pilot of Ted Lasso as well. So you can go check that out in our feed if you haven't yet. So yeah, stay tuned and we will get that breakdown to you guys soon.
Kara: Thanks for listening. If you have any [00:48:00] suggestions for shows you want us to break down, you can email us at, it's in my cue pod gmail.com.
Adina: And if you wanna prepare for our next episode, the next finale breakdown we'll be doing is Ted Lasso. If you wanna hear our TV thoughts that go beyond the pilot, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at itsinmyqueue.substack.com for our thoughts and TV news straight in your inbox every Friday. And if you liked what you
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Adina: Twitters. I am @adinaterrific.
Kara: And I'm @karaaa_powell. Thanks for listening, and we hope we've helped you clear out your queue.